maybe not the best week playing saints to bring this up, may take it to the VT

Hardly a case of gross unfairness. Catalans had a far better chance of making a success of SL than Widnes did, they had better finances in place and a better infrastructure and far better management, The management at Widnes during that time was really shoddy, they had two pretty good coaches, Kelly and Endacott, who were both undermined by their board and they shot themselves in the foot. Ordinarily they wouldn't have gone down as the second bottom team in the league, but they were in shape for relegation, they won 1 from their last 12 games that season and they were copping some hammerings.



Widnes had four years in SL, they never finished higher than 7th and were second from bottom in two of those four seasons. In comparison, Catalans have had four years in SL, they've had a 3rd place league finish, a Final Eliminator playoff finish and a Wembley final.....they've had stable management and been financially healthy.



Whilst I do agree that Widnes has a great heritage in rugby league, you can't be given favours on sentiment alone. If it hadn't been for Catalans coming in and Widnes had survived they would have been dead ducks in 2006 with a much stronger Castleford coming up with a stable board and good coach in Terry Matterson....Widnes would have certainly dropped in 2006.

Fair enough although a load of speculation for the 06 season as I am sure you would admit. Would you be so relaxed if it was WWRLFC who were 'sacrificed' for the greater good? Let's not forget Warrington were not pulling up any trees in the SL era at that time either.



Anyway my point was that it was unfair in a sporting context rather than this "franchiseability" crap the "visionaries" at the helm of the RL consider. The status quo previously provided for the bottom team to be relegated, this was changed to bottom 2 sides to effect a fast track for Catalans. This is clearly anti-competitive and would never be allowed in football at Hackney marshes level never mind the top flight of professional rugby league.



I know if it was Warrington who were the team with "great heritage in RL" who suffered like Widnes did we would have been up in arms and bitter to this day.



Whilst we are on the subject I genuinely would be interested to hear your views on the benefit of both Harlequins and Crusaders in SL when compared against the obvious downsides of diluting Sky TV income and the gate receipt loss to each and every club that plays against them.

Sorry to butt in and I know its early days but Crusaders average home attendance is higher than that of Salford, Castleford, Catalans, Harliquins, Wakefield & Hull KR.

And they brought as many, if not more than Bradford.

Crusaders will pay their way this season, Quins are on a terrible run.

in every aspect on and off the field

Fair do's. Only 2 home games though in Leeds and Hull bolstered by a lot of furore, free tickets and zealous Red Hall support.



Let's consider the average attendance for the teams you mention in 2009 shall we.



Catalans - 9,159

Hull KR - 8,501

Castleford - 7,489

Wakefield - 5,892

Salford - 4,467

Crusaders - 3,668

Harlequins - 3,436



You make my "expansionism doesn't work as there is not the support base to justify it not least when you consider you are taking the place of the likes of Leigh, Widnes etc" point for me. The farce surrounding your move from the Valleys to 32.8 miles from Widnes doesn't help either.



I wish you no harm (if you are a Crusader) but honestly don't think you deserve a place in the elite league of northern hemisphere RL when there are so many better qualified teams staking a place before you.

Bradford 10,434

Crusaders 11,113





Factor in the cheap tickets, day/time of game, and Sky TV and I think you will find the difference accounted for. I stood in the West for the Crusaders game and it was mostly Wire if we are being honest.

I could see pretty clearly how many were Crusaders and it was a close run thing between them and Bradford.

Also the south was no where near full for the Crusaders but Bradford it was packed.



It's really unfair to compare 2009 with this year as yes, Bridgend was a disaster.

There were NO free tickets given out for the Leeds game and for the Hull game they actually sold more tickets than turned up, the weather in north wales for people travelling up until lunch time was awful.

I think we should be expanding 30 miles at a time, satellite expansion just does not work here, we aren't australia.

I agree with moderate expansion like you suggest. Remember we had a strong team in Sheffield until the powers that be shafted them royally.



I think the South packed for Bradford and not for Crusaders may be due to the cheap tickets. I never have a season ticket but turn up when I feel (which is usually all the time). I was in the south for Bradford and the West for Crusaders as it was £14 less for me and the missus. I wonder how many other wire fans without season tickets did the same?



Anyway if Brigend was a disaster (and I don't disagree) where does that put Harlequins?

up sh*t creek tbh

Something SERIOUSLY needs to change there, shame because they're packed full of young english players.

Maybe we should be allowing them time like Cas in 08 and maybe they'll have the same turnaround in fortune, can't see it though.

You will be heartened to know that it is the 30th anniversary of the expansionist experiment in London this year....